苏联在伟大的卫国战争期间的军事动员和损失(浓缩版)

一楼喂狗
注:打滚、喷人者从严处理

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 00:02:00 +0800 CST  




只需要这三张表格就可以把所有问题解释清楚。此表上的数据显示,战争期间,从军队中流失2163.69万人,主要为因伤、病复员或休假,转入工业、建筑业、内务部队,被判刑等。按照当时前线的统计,苏军无可挽回的损失为1144.41万人,但后来有183.6万被俘人员战后返回,另有93.97万名军人战争初期被打散、被俘而被计入失踪人员,但在当地被解放后重新应招入伍。这样实际损失军人866.84万人
需要特别强调的内容并非苏军的损失,而是苏军的兵力动员。在整个战争年代苏军总计只有3447.69万人入伍。这一点非常关键
——关于这段话,细化一下
战争爆发时在红军和红海军中:483.69万
在国防人民委员下属其它部队中服役:7.49万


战争年代入伍:2957.49万
全部战争年代入伍,包括红军、红海军(以上两类含战前已经服役人员)、其它部队和工业系统:3447.69万


战争年代从军队中流失的人员:2163.69万人
其中具体分类如下
各种原因造成的战场死亡:688.51万
被俘、失踪、掉队:505.9万。其中50万是被征召但未能及时加入部队就被俘的人员。另有50万也已经在战场上死亡但未计入上一栏。因此红军真实的战场死亡人数为738.51万
因伤病原因离队:379.82万。其中257.6万人为永久致残
转入工业企业、地方防空部队或警卫部队:361.46万
转入内务部下属的各种部队:117.46万
转入波兰、捷克斯洛伐克、罗马尼亚人民军:25.04万



被处分的有99.43万人
其中:送往惩戒分队42.27万人(依然计入红军和红海军的兵力总数)
被审判后监禁:43.66万
因种种原因被开除:20.6万


开小差:21.24万


到胜利日依然留在红军和红海军(不含内务人民委员会下属的作战部队和边防军)中的人员:1283.98万
其中:可出勤:1139.06万
在医院修养:104.6万
在国防人民委员会下属的其它部队中服役:40.32万

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 00:07:00 +0800 CST  



当然关于永久损失其实是有三个不同的版本的总数的:11444100、8668400、12400900。第一个是全部死亡、被俘、失踪、掉队总和,第二个是扣除了被俘后幸存人员的总数。关于第三个最高的版本,第二张图明确说明这是来自于地方部门的统计,包括负责人民委员会和兵役登记的军官进行的统计。(战争造成的)人口的剧烈波动使这些互相独立的部门之间出现了重复统计导致出现了这个更高的版本。因此最后一个数据已经不再被提及

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 00:53:00 +0800 CST  
Krivosheev's analysis puts Soviet military POW dead at about 1.1 million,[16] however most estimates by Western historians for Soviet prisoners of war deaths is about 3 million out of 5.7 million total POW's in German hands.[24][25] Russian researcher Vadim Erlikman puts Soviet military dead at 10.6 million; he maintains that Soviet military casualties should also include the deaths of an additional estimated 1,500,000 conscripted reservists captured before being listed on active strength as well as draft age men treated as military POW by Germany, also about 150,000 militia and 250,000 Soviet partisan dead.[26] However, according to Krivosheev the figure of 3.0 million POW dead probably includes partisans, militia, and many civilian men of military age taken as POW, they are considered civilian deaths in his figures.[27] According to S. A. Il’enkov, Krivosheev's analysis obviously conflicts with the Russian Military Archives database of individual war dead, which still lists over 7 million missing soldiers and sergeants alone, as well as opinions of the highest ranking Russian officials.[28]
当然这个世界上永远不会缺乏想搞大新闻的人物。Erlikman认为苏军军人的总死亡人数应为1060万人,之所以与克里沃舍耶夫的统计之间出现这个差距是因为有150万被征召的预备役人员在抵达部队前被俘(显然此类人员中相当一部分人死于被关押期间。而克里沃舍耶夫认为此类人员被俘总数只有50万人。并且未将其死亡人数做计算并加入苏军死亡人数统计中——译者注)。此外Erlikman认为克里沃舍耶夫无视了阵亡的15万苏军民兵和25万苏军游击队员(但克里沃舍耶夫的书里表示他是计算进去了的——译者注)。与此同时S. A. Il’enkov提出苏军官兵被俘、失踪人数应为700万人(作为对照,德军宣称的东线抓俘人数总计576万——译者注),因此苏军真实损失超过克里沃舍耶夫的统计

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 01:22:00 +0800 CST  
Lopukhovsky and Kavalerchik dispute Krivoshhev's analysis of POW dead. According to the reconciliation of Krivosheev's figures by Lopukhovsky and Kavalerchik 4,059,000 were taken as POW, 939,700 were later liberated during the war and drafted again; 1,836,000 were liberated after the war; 180,000 emigrated after the war, 1,023,230 were released during the war by the Germans' less (159,000) escaped and 239,100 were dead as POW(5.9%).[32] It should be pointed out that the figure of 239,100 Soviet POW dead does not appear in Krivoshev's book. This figure was derived by Lopukhovsky and Kavalerchik. In fact Krivoshhev wrote According to German sources 673,000 died in captivity. Of the remaining 1,110,300, Soviet sources indicate that over half also died captivity.[16]


当然想搞大新闻的人才不可能只有这么2个。Lopukhovsky和Kavalerchik的团队和Igor Ivlev也分析了苏军的被俘、失踪和被俘后死亡情况,此外还有根据德方档案进行分析的。具体如下:


可见这些人提出的苏军被俘人数、被俘后死亡人数全部大大超过克里沃舍耶夫的统计。那么究竟是不是真的呢?当然是假的,假的离奇。具体见后文

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 01:30:00 +0800 CST  
In 2000 the late Dr. S. N. Mikhalev of the History department of Krasnoyarsk State Pedagogical University[33] published a critical analysis of the official Russian wartime casualty statistics, From 1989 to 1996 Mikhalev was an associate of the Institute of Military History of the Ministry of Defence. Mikalev estimated actual Soviet military war dead at more than 10.9 million persons. He maintained that the official figures cannot be reconciled to the total men drafted and that POW deaths were understated. Mikhalev believed that the official figure of 26.6 million war dead should not be regarded as definitive. In 1995 the Russian Academy of Science published his analysis of the demographic balance of the USSR in the war that indicated total losses ranging from 21.240 million to 25.854 million, with the mid range being 23.568 million total war dead. Mikhalev pointed out that the figures for total war deaths are based on a range of possible estimates for the pre-war population in 1939 and the population of the annexed territories that are by no means certain.[34]
The following schedule shows the reconciliation of losses of the field reports to the actual number of mobilized persons
S. N. Mikhalev也想搞个大新闻,所以他也公布了自己的研究成果,这两个人都做了一份战争前后人员损失正负值对照表。对此,可以和克里沃舍耶夫的分析统计对照着看,具体对比图如下:


具体差别在于:克里沃舍耶夫认为苏军在1945年胜利日有兵力1284万人,Mikhalev认为只有1199.9万人;克里沃舍耶夫考虑到有战争年代被俘后逃回己方的94万苏军的存在所以计算全部死亡人数的时候把这一部分人列进了加减式而Mikhalev并没有;克里沃舍耶夫直接减掉了未抵达红军部队就被俘的50万预备役人员而Mikhalev没有减掉,这就等于认为这些人全部死亡;Mikhalev认为内务人民委员会下属的NKVD部队和边防军的损失人数要单独计算而克里沃舍耶夫在其著作中已经明确指出这已经计算进去了。同时需要说明的是,NKVD部队和边防军的兵力来源为征召的红军士兵转入内务人民委员会
但这里有很重要的一点需要说明。无论是克里沃舍耶夫还是Mikhalev都认为苏军在伟大的卫国战争期间入伍的官兵总数只有2957.5万。同时克里沃舍耶夫已经列出了整个伟大的卫国战争期间苏军参战人员的命运
因此我们可以得出如下结论:苏军永久损失人数=战争开始时苏军兵力+战争期间入伍兵力-转入工业系统、地方警卫、防空部队人员数量-战争期间被开除数量-因伤残原因退伍数量-转入内务人民委员会部队的兵力-未抵达部队就被德军俘获的预备役人员
以上合计苏军截止胜利日拥有兵力总数和离开军队1946.82万。加加减减发现克里沃舍耶夫的1144万总损失并没有什么问题
至于4楼所提到那两个人,就得解释一下为什么多出来那么多被俘人员了

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 01:46:00 +0800 CST  
The analysis of Krivosheev and Mikhalev is based on the field reports of the Red Army and the reconciliation of the balance for persons conscripted. An alternative method to determine Soviet war losses is the Russian Military Archives database of individual war dead. S. A. Il’enkov, an official of the Central Archives of the Russian Ministry of Defense writing in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies, maintained that "complex military situation at the front did not always allow for the conduct of a full accounting of losses." He pointed out that reports from the field units did not include deaths in rear area hospitals of wounded personnel. Il’enkov maintains that the information in the Russian Military Archives alphabetical card-indexes can assist in solving the problem of determining the total number of Soviet military war dead.[28] In an article published by the Central Archives of the Russian Ministry of Defense Il’enkov described the work of the archives to reconcile database of individual war dead. He believes the work has progressed to the point where we can determine an accurate accounting of war losses. Il’enkov concluded by stating "We established the number of irreplaceable losses of our Armed Forces at the time of the Great Patriotic War of about 13,850,000.[38] A more recent compilation made in March 2008 of the individuals listed in the card files puts total dead and missing at 14,241,000 (13,271,269 enlisted men and 970,000 officers)[39] This database is incomplete and does not include all men killed in the war; currently graves registration teams in Russia are identifying war dead that are not currently included in the database


还是前文所提到的S. A. Il’enkov。这一段中提到了他的两个主要观点。其一:He pointed out that reports from the field units did not include deaths in rear area hospitals of wounded personnel——他指出这些来自野战部队的报告不包括死在后方医院的伤员。他居然连这种话都说得出口。任何一个看过原文的人都会知道,克里沃舍耶夫是明确列出了苏军损失人员中死于后送途中和后方医院人员总数的。所以他的这种指责完全就是污蔑


其二,也是最重要的一个观点:根据卡片登记情况(每个战时参战的苏联军人的身份信息都登记在一张卡片上,并存放于Russian Military Archives database of individual war dead)。Il’enkov本人就是这个机构的领导人。此人声称根据他的团队的研究,苏军真实的不可恢复损失总人数应为14,241,000人。比克里沃舍耶夫版本多230万左右。之前发布的数据是13,850,000人,照样多出近190万人。那么这么大的差距究竟是哪里来的呢?前文已经提到了这一问题。According to S. A. Il’enkov, Krivosheev's analysis obviously conflicts with the Russian Military Archives database of individual war dead, which still lists over 7 million missing soldiers and sergeants alone, as well as opinions of the highest ranking Russian officials.[28]——也就是说这位S. A. Il’enkov认为苏军的被俘失踪人数不是克里沃舍耶夫计算得出的509万人(含未抵达部队就被俘人员的话),而是达到了700万人。比克里沃舍耶夫的统计多出整整200万人。而他给出的苏军不可恢复损失总数差不多也多出来这么多。这不是偶然的,说白了就是传说中的重复统计。如上文所述,克里沃舍耶夫已经把全部参军的3400多万苏军官兵的命运作了详细罗列,这200万所谓被俘人员完全就是平白无故的多出来的。这平白无故多出来的200万所谓被俘人员再加到不可恢复损失总数当中,就得出了苏军在伟大的卫国战争期间永久损失达1424.1万人的可笑结论

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 02:05:00 +0800 CST  
此外,前文所提到的Lopukhovsky和Kavalerchik的团队为了污蔑克里沃舍耶夫的研究,将其恶意称为只根据红军总参谋部、国防部保存的正式档案(其中主要记载着每月上报给总参谋部和最高统帅大本营的人员损失统计材料是方面军、集团军、师、团等前线部队的作战日志)对损失人数进行计算。同时举了一个例子:步兵第154师从1941.10.1-21上报损失5000人,实际损失1.5万人。这个案例被记载于Lopukhovsky著作《维亚济马大灾难》的第408页。同时根据该书P451页的记载,当时红军步兵师编制的满编人数为10858人。对于该步兵师编制数远低于损失数的情况,我们期待这位作者做出详细的解释
同时显而易见的,克里沃舍耶夫团队远远不仅仅是分析了各级部队作战日志。除此之外他们还考证了全体入伍苏军官兵的最终命运构成情况,也就是本楼开头贴的3张图所展示的表格。并且各项相加最终能算出总入伍数。也就是说克里沃舍耶夫的统计并无问题(第6楼已经分析过了)

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 02:21:00 +0800 CST  
Immediately after the war and by 1949 the militarycommissariats conducted the so-called “canvass of yards” where they went topeople’s yards and homes with lists of questions for relatives of frontlinesoldiers who did not return from the war, with the aim of identifying themissing. Such servicemen make up 60% of the card file.
——按照那个Il’enkov的说明。他的材料来自记载苏军官兵身份信息的卡片。同时他声明战争年代精确统计这类卡片是不可能的,因此1949年军事人民委员会派出了调查员到苏军官兵亲属家里对失踪者进行了调查。并且按照他的说法,失踪者卡片的总数达到了卡片总数的六成


根据Il’enkov所主张的说法,有1400万苏军官兵永久损失,至少比克里沃舍耶夫版本多出200万。但楼上已经罗列了克里沃舍耶夫列出的苏军全体入伍官兵战时命运构成情况。因此所谓的这200万人的永久损失在战时苏军全部3447.69万入伍官兵中根本就是不存在的!这一点是这个问题的关键。为什么会出现根本不存在的200万军人呢?
很显然,问题来自调查方式。正常情况下关于一个人是否入伍可以从两个渠道调查:军队的入伍登记和地方行政机关的登记。军事人民委员会派出的调查员只是寻访了苏联各家庭的成员而不是根据地方民政部门的档案来分析这些官兵的入伍情况。实际上由于德军的入侵,这些地方行政部门的档案都损毁严重,无法通过这种方式再作调查。而军队的档案日志要随军队携带因此才得以保留
事实上,克里沃舍耶夫计算苏联平民损失时也并未挨个调查,而是根据人口变化情况得出苏联在二战中的非正常死亡人数
所以,因为战时的混乱状态中有大量苏联平民非正常死亡,其中一部分是在其亲属毫不知情的情况下死亡的。因此这些亲属自然会误认为他们是去参军了然后将其报告给调查员,调查员便错误地将其登记为军人。事实上,无论是克里沃舍耶夫还是提出苏军战时仅死亡人数就达到1092.2万人的Mikhalev都认为苏军在伟大的卫国战争爆发后入伍的官兵总数只有2957.5万。再加上战争爆发时在部队的官兵总数为3400多万人(两人提出的战争爆发时苏军官兵总数略有出入因此总数也相应的略有出入但差别不大)。显而易见的,提出苏军被俘500多万甚至700多万的几个历史学家全都如同变戏法一般变出了上百万的苏军被俘人员。这些人根本就不是苏军官兵,而很有可能是战时被掳掠到德国的平民或被德国法西斯军队在其亲人毫不知情的情况下无端杀害的平民

楼主 Fourthforce  发布于 2016-08-10 18:25:00 +0800 CST  

楼主:Fourthforce

字数:9669

发表时间:2016-08-10 08:02:00 +0800 CST

更新时间:2017-02-09 17:04:57 +0800 CST

评论数:20条评论

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